Create Accessible PDFs - Spacecraft Webinar
Austin Brailey: Hello everyone. Thank you for attending this morning. We're just going to give it a few minutes to see if we get any stragglers. But, we'll start pretty soon.
Austin Brailey: Okay. Thank you for your patience. Jack's just left to get some water. He's your presenter today, so we will start literally in about 30 seconds, a minutes' time.
Austin Brailey: Okay, good morning everyone, thank you for attending. So, this webinar is about creating accessible PDFs, as you might have guessed. We know PDFs are a huge accessibility bug for many of you, we know this because we regularly receive questions around the topic from councils and higher educational organizations in particular. Not just in the UK, but around the world, so we thought a webinar on the topic might be useful.
Austin Brailey: Jack Niland, who is a UX designer at Jadu Spacecraft will be leading the webinar today. Just before I hand over, I'll quickly say that if you do have any questions for Jack, please do place them in the chat box on the GoToWebinar panel. Ask any questions, feel free to place anything in the chat box. And when it comes to the Q&A at the end, I'll read them out, and if he's unable to answer any, or we can't get to them, for whatever reason, Jack has kindly said he is willing to pick up and message you directly afterwards.
Austin Brailey: So, yeah, please do keep that in mind. So without any further ado, I'll hand it over to you, Jack.
Jack Niland: Okay, thanks Austin. Thanks for that introduction. Yeah, so, as Austin said, my name is Jack Niland, I'm a UX designer at Spacecraft Jadu. So, being a UX designer is all about designing our products in a user-centered way, putting people first, and it's important to design our sites based on how people use them. And accessibility is a big part of that.
Jack Niland: So it really features heavily in my role. Another part of my role which I really enjoy doing is accessibility training, so going up and down the country, meeting loads of accessibility champions in different councils across the UK. It's a big part of my job that I enjoy. And of course PDFs are a massive thing, it always comes up, people have loads of questions about PDFs. So, me and the team spent some time putting this webinar together basically to help you guys out, hopefully answer a few questions, and maybe dispel a few myths as well.
Jack Niland: So yeah, as Austin says, if you want to ask any questions, or interact during the webinar, please use the side bar there. We'll be taking a Q&A at the end of the presentation, and of course this will all be available afterwards with a transcript.
Jack Niland: If you want to tweet during the webinar, you can use the hashtags that we've got there, Spacecraft UX, all about accessibility, and the little accessibility A11Y hashtag as well.
Jack Niland: So yeah, let's get into it.
Jack Niland: So what we're going to be covering today, why I make PDFs accessible, when to use PDFs, how to make accessible PDFs, and then we can go over a few examples for you.
Jack Niland: So, why make PDFs accessible? You guys might already know a lot of this stuff already, as you all attended an accessibility webinar on PDFs. But of course, this is what it all comes down to. So, making sure that users of assistive technology, such as screen readers, screen magnifying software, and any speech recognition software, have got equal access to the web, same as anybody else that wants to look at the PDF.
Jack Niland: It also benefits mobile devices, making your PDFs accessible ensures that they're a lot easier for your users to access on the go. And of course, the public body regulations now that came into force last year do require all office file formats to meet the standards. I've got a little star there, so this is something I've taken from the regulations. So the regulations do not apply to the following content on the website or mobile application of a public body. So office file formats, and when they say that, that includes PDFs, published before September 2018, unless such content is needed for active administrative processes relating to the tasks performed by the public sector body.
Jack Niland: So I just wanted to include this, just for a bit of extra information for you guys, because a lot of times when speaking to councils, they have a big worry with these regulations coming into force, especially with the looming deadline of September at the end of this month. So basically we have a lot of people worried that all of their PDFs on the website that aren't accessible, are going to lead them to fail any audits or anything like that, and of course there's a lot of stress involved there.
Jack Niland: But basically, there is this clause in the regulation that says all of your PDFs published after September 2018 need to be accessible. But for all of those archive pieces that aren't necessarily important to your users' day-to-day lives, you don't necessarily have to update those as well.
Jack Niland: So, you do need to do a bit of assessment of where to spend your time when you're updating your content on your site, and make sure you focus on the most important stuff, the things that your users are interacting with, and the things they need to interact with to do their daily tasks. So your analytics can help you with that.
Jack Niland: Okay, so, when should you use PDFs? So do not ever use PDFs, ever, okay, there's one route you could take. Of course, we know sometimes you might get that advice, but it's not true is it? You've got to use PDFs sometimes, and they're not the enemy, there are use cases for PDFs. So here's a few: Archival purposes, so the PDF format as we know has been known to stand the test of time. If you've got a document that you need to ensure can be opened in the future on any sort of device, then you're going to want it to be a PDF.
Jack Niland: Version control, so a person can't edit a PDF without leaving a paper trail of some kind. So if you need version control on your document, then that's when you should use a PDF. Maybe, for example, a contract, or something like that.
Jack Niland: Printers, materials that you've printed, so maybe you have a map for an event that you want people to print out so that they can see the location, that would be a good use case for that, because PDFs of course play nicely with printing more so than web pages.
Jack Niland: So those are just a few examples of when you should be using PDFs. We do see a lot of examples of when people shouldn't be using PDFs, because nine times out of ten, the content is going to work better on the webpage in HTML and CSS, it's going to be more accessible, it's going to be easier to maintain, and all of that sort of stuff.
Jack Niland: So, how to make accessible PDFs. So, accessible PDFs are all about tags. So when people talk about an accessible PDF, they're usually referring to a tagged PDF file. So PDF tags provide a hidden structured representation of the PDF content that is presented to screen readers. They exist for accessibility purposes only, so they don't have any visible effect on the PDF. Well there is a little bit more to an accessible PDF file, but a PDF without any tags would not be considered accessible.
Jack Niland: So basically, you just need to tag all of your content so that the screen reader can appropriately read it out.
Jack Niland: And with that in mind, then we can see that a big part about accessible PDFs is the original document. So the best way to have an accessible PDF is to make sure the original document is accessible.
Jack Niland: We're going to focus on Word documents today, so let me just bring up my Word document and give you a little example of that.
Jack Niland: So here have a basic Word document. We have a title, an image, a little list there, subtitle, and then we've got a bit of body text as well. So we know we need to have tags on this stuff, but what are tags, how can we do that?
Jack Niland: Well, basically, in Word, if we tag our content with headings and text styles, when we convert it to a PDF document, it will pick up on that. So when you're creating your Word document, you need to make sure that everything in there has an appropriate text tag. For this one, we're going to be using a heading tag, and this one we have as a heading 2. And then we've got normal text in there as well, just for the body text. And then of course we have an image in here as well. So how should we do that?
Jack Niland: You might know that images on webpages or images within your CMS need to have alt text. Alt text is what the screen reader would read out in place of the image for a screen reader user. It's just to ensure the screen reader user has the exact same experience as everybody else. It's really important, and it's something that often people fall down on, with images in particular.
Jack Niland: How would we do that in Word? Basically we right click on the image, and then we go down to format picture. And then we need to add in the alt text. In this case, a person holding a smart phone. And your PDF probably will be a bit more complex than this, so that's just a quick example. But what we want to do next is we want to export this as a PDF.
Jack Niland: So, we hit our Acrobat tag, and then create PDF. Oops, now I need to save that of course.
Jack Niland: So there we have our Word document now into a PDF. So, hopefully job done there. We have all of our tags in place, so this document should be completely accessible. However, it's not always the case. So what [inaudible 00:13:12] once we get into Acrobat, we want to check it again. So we want open up all our accessibility settings, and then we want to check on this document. Oops, we've got one I already saved here.
Jack Niland: So, here we go, we want to run our check. And so here's a list of all the different things this is checking for, so checking for tags, which I mentioned, logical reading order, that's important for the screen reader as well, so that it's not reading things out in a jumbled up manner. And checking for the titles, and all that sort of stuff.
Jack Niland: So let's get that away. So you can see on the left hand side here, all the different things that it's checked for, so the alt text that we put on our image there, that's all passed. It doesn't contain any forms, but if it did, they would sit there.
Jack Niland: Now that's something we still see a lot of our clients doing, or new clients potentially doing with PDFs, creating forms, which isn't always ideal to be honest. You want to have your forms sitting on the page, again, in HTML or CSS, because it's going to be easier for you to maintain and easier to keep accessible basically.
Jack Niland: Okay, so it has flagged up two issues for us. So this is why it's important to always check your PDF in Acrobat, even after you've tagged it, and that the original document, so in our case Word. So yeah, logical reading order, it's asking us to check that manually. And again, the color contrast. So we need to manually check that. So of course we've got the black text and the white background, so we know that passes. But if you had a more designed document, then you'd have to check that.
Jack Niland: So, if we want to check the reading order, what we do is click on this icon here to see the view. And then we can see the numbers here, and the gray boxes, which indicate our different elements that the screen reader is going to read out. So number one, the title there in that gray box. Number two, the image. You can see the alt text there, that's not very accessible. But that is my alt text person holding a smart phone, number two. And number three, we've got a list there. Number five, we've got our page two, our second title, and number four we've got the body text.
Jack Niland: So if there were any errors there, you'd have to move those around or change them. But it's okay, we've checked that and that's fine. So let me go back to my slides.
Jack Niland: So, yeah, PDF accessibility depends on the original document. So if you made your original document accessibly, and you've tagged it in Word, then you're going to have a lot of an easier time. First step, create your documents to be accessible, second step, convert them to PDF, and then third step, check them for accessibility.
Jack Niland: So, that's how you would do it in our ideal Word world, you'd get your content together in Word, and then you'd put it together in a PDF. So let's look at real life examples of the sort of things that our clients have been telling me in the training are the sort of things that you encounter.
Jack Niland: So we're going to look at web team and the service area. So a lot times, with the councils that I visit, we have the web teams that need to put the PDF online, and then we have the service area that has created the PDF. So we're going to look at a little conversation between these two guys.
Jack Niland: So, first up, service area, hi web team, this PDF needs to go on the website. So it's come over to you and you've noticed it's not accessible, so what do you need to do? We ping back to the service area, sorry this is not accessible. I can show you how to make your documents usable for disable people, and then great, okay thanks web team, you're the best. You can show me that. So then you can go over to them, and you can give them the example that I've just given you there, on how to successfully tag all of your pieces of content in Word, and then convert them using Acrobat, and there you go, you've got accessible PDFs.
Jack Niland: So that's example one, hopefully that's what our web teams are going to see with our service areas, ideally. So let's have a look at our next example.
Jack Niland: Okay, so, hi web team, this PDF needs to go on the website. Sorry, it's not accessible, I can show you how to make your documents usable for disable people, but this time, service area, we don't have time. We can't do that. And this PDF needs to go online today. So you've got a little problem there. So you think, okay, this is a problem, but I'll sort it out for you. Could you send me the source document please? So you want to get a hold of their Word file, so that you can make the relevant changes.
Jack Niland: So you want to go back to the source document, and there you can insert your text. So if you receive a PDF, this is if they haven't tagged it of course, if you receive a PDF that is untagged, or maybe where the tag structure is incomplete, or incorrect, maybe someone has used heading one for everything for example. That's not going to work. So it's usually best to return to the source document, go into it, repair all the tags, maybe clear the format and start again if it's very ... because as with most things on the web with accessibility, it's easier to create something accessible from the start, than try and retroactively alter something to make it accessible.
Jack Niland: So, preferably you get your colleague in the service area to send you their Word document, and you fix that, get all the tags in there, and then you'd convert it to a PDF, again, check that PDF, and then you'll be good to go online.
Jack Niland: Okay, so, example three. We don't have time, can you do it, it has to go online today from the service area. Okay, can you send me the source document please? And then, unfortunately with this one, you get sorry, no. I don't have the source document, it was produced externally. So you've got a bit of an issue there. So this is the same as the last example, but here the service team is telling us that they don't have access to the source document. So what can we do?
Jack Niland: We need to add tags to an untagged document, an untagged PDF. So there are a couple of ways you could do that. The first thing that you want to try if the source document is unavailable is to convert it back to its original format. So you can use Acrobat to convert a PDF back to Word, Excel, or PowerPoint, or whatever it might be, by going file, export to, and then export it back to Word. And then you can recreate the steps we did in the last example where you tag it properly.
Jack Niland: If you can't convert back to the original document, for whatever reason, and the tags pane shows no tags available, so in the number two there that's sort of tags pane from our accessibility check that we looked at a moment ago, so you're going to need to add tags to this PDF. So to add tags to an untagged PDF that contains text, you can choose options menu in the tags, that's the little drop down I've got there, and then add tags to document. So it will generate some tags for you, and what you're going to have to do there is review them, and usually do some repairs, because unfortunately it's not necessarily going to get them all correct for you.
Jack Niland: But it is possible there, so basically you have to manually go through, review the auto-created tags on the PDF, and then go and change those, or potentially create some. And again you'd have to check the reading order, but you can use the accessibility checker on Acrobat to help you with that.
Jack Niland: Okay. So, that's what you could do if you didn't have the source document, and you couldn't recreate it. So there were three quite common examples of what you could do. You either assist your service team, show them how to create the PDF accessibly through the original source document. If you don't do that, you can try and repair the source document yourself. If you don't have the source document, you can always try and export back to that source document, try and export it back to Word and do your repairs there. And if all else fails, you can create the tags within the PDF itself. A little bit more fiddly, not ideal, but it is possible.
Jack Niland: But what more can you do, so maybe you're struggling with trying to share your knowledge with your services team, and they maybe aren't interested, or maybe you're always in this third option where you don't have any source documents, you don't have any way to recreate the source document. That would be a real problem, because as I say, this stuff is easier to do step one.
Jack Niland: If you're constantly facing that, or maybe you have a team that isn't interested in what more can I do, well maybe we can help you out. We also do, as I mentioned, accessibility training, maybe we can come in and talk to your services teams and help you with that. Audits, we also mentioned audits, we do that as well, accessibility audits on your sites. But that was what we had today for creating accessible PDFs, sharing our knowledge with you, and hopefully that's going to have helped a lot of you there.
Jack Niland: But yeah, I think now we're going to open it up to any questions you may have.
Austin Brailey: Yeah, please feel free to add them into the question box. Got a question, first Jack, around using PDF forms. I know you touched on it in the presentation, but a lot of people are asking, or have asked up until this point, around the use of PDF and forms. It's something so ingrained in councils, how can you overcome that?
Jack Niland: Yeah, it is a problem, and I think, as you say, it is ingrained in some areas. But, we've just got more modern ways to deal with forms now, basically. As I say, using a forms package that is built in HTML and CSS, is going to be much more robust. You know you're going to pass accessibility, you're not going to have to worry about that. It's going to be easier for you to maintain than a PDF document. So let's say you have some legacy forms somewhere on your site, you're not necessarily going to have the source document for that. Or maybe the person that owns that source document isn't around anymore, so you're going run into these problems where you're trying to tag an untagged PDF, which as I say, is more difficult than when you have the source document.
Jack Niland: So yeah, it's just basically our advice, that it's much easier to create the forms in HTML or CSS, or using a forms package, than trying to mess around with forms in PDFs.
Austin Brailey: Sure, okay. And with regard to going back and amending, or fixing some sort of legacy PDF, is it always going to be quite a manual process? I've head people talk about downloading old PDFs, amending them, and re-uploading in batches. Is it always going to be quite a manual process, or is there some sort of automation behind it? Or is it just one of those things?
Jack Niland: [crosstalk 00:26:57] Well, there's some automation available, but you're still going to have to check for things that a piece of software just can't do, like the reading order. Is the reading order natural? You need a human eye to look at that, so there is always going to be that element for checking your PDFs.
Austin Brailey: Sure, okay. And also as mentioned, the heading tags in the Word document, why are those important? Because people traditionally quite often see them as a sort of formatting and visual thing, but it has something to do with the screen readers, right? Something more?
Jack Niland: Yes, you're right. So I should have explained that better. Basically, the way a person uses a screen reader to browse the web, is very similar to how a sighted person would browse the web with their eyes. So a sighted person might look across the website, quickly scan the page, and pick out the headings and quickly scan those, and then zero in on what it is they want to read on the page. What is the important piece of information they're trying to find?
Jack Niland: So a screen reading user will do that exact same process but they will use their ears, so they'll have their screen reader and they'll cycle through headings. So they may navigate the page by quickly listening to all the headings, and then working out which heading it is that has the content they want to consume, want to listen to.
Jack Niland: So yeah, it's very important to have correctly tagged documents for that reason. Because otherwise, if you didn't have any tags on your headings for example, the screen reading user couldn't do that. They may have to listen to your entire page, which may be a lengthy page. It's just a lot less convenient for them, just not giving them that same experience of browsing that the sighted user would have.
Austin Brailey: Okay, great. Some questions in the question box that I'll go on to, Jack, can you show us how to add tags in a PDF when you don't have a source document?
Jack Niland: Yeah, okay. Let me open up my Acrobat. So you go into the tag section here, so obviously this has all got tags. Maybe I'll just add some content here that doesn't have a tag. Maybe I'll ... maybe I'll just make it look like a heading, but it's not really a heading, okay bold, so let's take that off, oops. And then this is sort of like our body content. Oops, and save that. I'll close this one.
Jack Niland: Okay, and I'll just quickly save this. It's [inaudible 00:30:52]. Okay. Okay, so, if I just quickly do a little check on that, and you can see it should come up with an issue here. Title failed, so that's this. Okay, so, let me open my tags pane, and we can see that's the tag for the whole section, so all the content, and then we've got our headings, and this line's just tagged as a P. So basically you can right click on this, you can make your amendments there.
Jack Niland: So this one is picked up correctly as a P tag, and then this one we can amend. You can also edit the reading order in this section as well if you needed to. Oops. If I wanted to add a new tag, then maybe I could add something in here. And then we can see it changes here to H3. Okay.
Austin Brailey: Okay, great, thanks Jack. Another question, is using a null alt tag acceptable on a purely cosmetic image?
Jack Niland: A purely cosmetic image, so yes, if you have completely decorative image you can do that. That wouldn't apply to the image that I had in my example, but maybe if you had just a shape, that had been used as a spacer within the document, in that case you would use a null.
Jack Niland: Something I always recommend for questions like that is the alt decision tree on W3. This is a great tool. We've got loads of information on decorative images as well. So yeah, if you had a spacer like this within your PDF that wasn't really used for anything, it was just used to break up two sections, in that case you would use a null.
Austin Brailey: Okay.
Jack Niland: Just a second.
Austin Brailey: Great, thank you. How do you make tables accessible in PDFs?
Jack Niland: Tables, again, that would be down to how you use the tags. You can tag your PDF with the correct titles for, say if you have columns and rows, then as long as you tag those appropriately.
Austin Brailey: Okey-dokey. And if there is more than one page, do you have to have page numbers?
Jack Niland: Do you have to have page numbers? I guess it would depend on what sort of document it was. I know a lot of PDFs, if it was a booklet or something like that often you would have a page number. I'm not sure if it's required to meet accessibility. Let me double check on that, I'll come back to you.
Austin Brailey: Okay. I'll make a note of that and we can follow up after. I'm going to read this one out, it's from Paula [Walkingson 00:35:26], she says, hi Jack, in York we are aiming to get buy-in around accessibility of digital documents for our senior management team, and then to cascade it downwards in comms to all staff. As you said, it's important to get it included in the first stage. So we're going to put out messaging for those commissioning external, or creating internal, designing PDFs themselves about these inclusions, and the consequences of doing so. I think once they understand this is a law, they may be inclined to get on board. But she asks you to wish them luck in doing that.
Jack Niland: Yeah, yeah, definitely. That's great to hear, Paula. And hopefully you can get everyone on board. Like I say at the start of the webinar, I think there are genuine use cases for PDFs, of course archival, that sort of stuff. But I think in recent times, or over the past few years, they've just been used for a lot of stuff that they shouldn't really have been used for. And you can see why often, but yeah it is a bit of a culture change isn't it, in a lot of places? It's a big shift to not using PDFs anymore.
Austin Brailey: Great. Yeah, you'll have to excuse me a little bit because my formatting is a bit weird on the GoToWebinar screen, so it's a bit tricky. Another question, when it's option three, so I think this is from one of your previous slides, when the original is not from Word, e.g. InDesign, how do you edit the actual PDF to add tags?
Jack Niland: You would still do it in the same way, and InDesign as well does have accessibility settings, so if it is your in house design team, I think that would be a knowledge share situation where you can go to them and say, look, you can create these tags in your design while you're doing it. So that would be the ideal situation, having them do that. If it's an external company that has someone in your organization sort of commissioned to produce something in InDesign, I'm not sure that you can export it back to an InDesign file. I'm not sure that you'll be able to do that. Or you may not have InDesign anyway, so you would still be able to create tags the same way in the document. But it might be a little bit more tricky in terms of reading order, depending on how it's designed.
Jack Niland: I think that's another element of culture shift that may need to occur, seeing heavily designed things in InDesign, that being put up as PDFs on websites, it doesn't always work basically, it is more difficult to make those accessible. So ideally, you would have the content on HTML and CSS on the page. If you can't do that, it is possible to add tags to more of a designed looking document, as opposed to my example, which was just straight text. So it is possible, using tags in the same way, but yeah, if possible we would recommend not to necessarily use that content, if possible.
Austin Brailey: Okay, thank you. Moving on to the next one. So some services ask for us to have PDF forms available, in addition to web forms. Does it matter if those PDF forms are not accessible?
Jack Niland: I would want to ask why they would want them in both forms? Why would they need that on the website would be my question, because the answer is yes, they would both need to be accessible. But why would they want both? Would it be because they want to print it out?
Austin Brailey: Good question. They still think people want to print them.
Jack Niland: Okay. Well, I guess there's an argument for that. They can still print the form if you have the electronic form on there. But if they insist on having both PDF and the electronic version, to answer your question then yes, the PDF does still need to be accessible.
Austin Brailey: Okay. We're hoping to make certain types of documents easier to navigate, with the inclusion of generated contents table and page numbers, which also helps when the PDF is converted. Just wondered if others are being as control freak-ish? I guess that's whether you've seen that Jack, and I guess whether everybody else on the webinar has seen that?
Jack Niland: I guess that's a question for the rest of the community there, if anyone else is doing that as well. I suppose it depends on how big a document you're talking, if you've got a contents table there.
Austin Brailey: Yes.
Jack Niland: And what that document is for. Again, I'd always like to go back to look at why you're using PDFs, and can that content sit there on an HTML webpage, because nine times out of ten, it's going to be more accessible, and it's going to be more usable that way. But yeah, I guess it would depend on what the document was.
Austin Brailey: Yes, if I was more familiar with GoToWebinar, I would try and throw up a poll, around about now, but I don't think I'm quite there yet, so if anybody does have any answers to that, please pop them in the chat and I'll read out.
Jack Niland: Pop them on chat, pop them on Twitter if you want, see if we can get some conversations going. I think it's good to share the knowledge as well, between councils on what you're doing, good practices, bad practices, and how to avoid them, all that sort of stuff. Because you guys are real experts in this stuff as well, it's not just us.
Austin Brailey: Okay. If an image in untagged, is it null by default? If not, which null character should we use?
Jack Niland: I'm not sure if in a PDF, if you don't tag it, I don't think it will give it anything if it's not tagged. So it'll just be skipped completely. What was the other part of the question? Which null should we use?
Austin Brailey: Yeah, so if an image is untagged, is it null by default? If not, which null character should we use?
Jack Niland: So if it is the decorative image that I mentioned a moment ago on the W3 little tool, so if it's one of these decorative images, for an example, a spacer like I said, then you do want to include null as in, null, not empty tags, null. But for any other use case, for what sort of image it would be, then as I say, if you used a sort of decision tree, this thing is really useful. Just go through, it'll say, does the image contain text, no, and step by step like that. And then when you get down to it, it'll tell you what sort of alt tag to use basically.
Jack Niland: So yeah, and I think we could share this link as well, Austin, in a follow-up email?
Austin Brailey: Sure, yeah. Will do. Thanks, Jack. Is a clickable index always necessary at the beginning of a long-ish document to make it accessible?
Jack Niland: Is a clickable index always necessary? Not 100% on that, let me get back to you on that one, and I'll find out.
Austin Brailey: Okay, we can send that in the follow-up as well. I think that might be it for the questions, unless I'm missing anything, I'm just scrolling through them. I'll just have a quick look in the chat to see if anybody weighed in on Paula's question. I can't see anything. Is there any more questions from anyone? Ah okay, so, one here. The alt decision tree seems to be about HTML, what do we put into Acrobat?
Jack Niland: Okay, so, when you're putting in your alt text, well you'd go back to the Word document. And when you're inside it here, this is where you would import whatever description was required, and then that would be pulled through into the PDF.
Austin Brailey: Rob has just added, he says I mean a null.
Jack Niland: Oh, okay, still on null. Okay, let me double check on that, because I believe if you had something, say for example, just a square that was blocking out this content right here or something, or a background image on this content, I think if you do not tag it at this stage, then it won't get picked up. But I see what you're saying now actually, yeah, sorry I was a bit crosswise there, you're asking how do you tag an image as null in the document, sorry yeah of course. I think if you don't tag it in the Word document, it won't get picked up, but that I think I will double check on that for you as well, because that's an important one, that's a good question. Let me double check and come back on that.
Austin Brailey: Okay. Do you need bookmarks to be accessible?
Jack Niland: Do you need bookmarks?
Austin Brailey: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jack Niland: On your webpage?
Austin Brailey: Just see if we have any clarification ... in Adobe.
Jack Niland: Oh okay. I'm not sure about that one. Let me get back to you on that.
Austin Brailey: Okay, yeah we will follow up all of these after the webinar if that's okay. There was another one here ... do you type a space in Word?
Jack Niland: Do you type a space in Word?
Austin Brailey: Yeah.
Jack Niland: Are we talking about the PDF, when we're looking at the images maybe? Do you type a space when you're trying to not have alt text there, was that the question?
Austin Brailey: Just to clarify, do you type a space in Word, and then there's been added, to generate a null alt?
Jack Niland: Yeah, okay. I thought so. Let me double check on that with null, and I'll come back to you. Because that's a good question, and I'll find out.
Austin Brailey: Okay, great. Make a note of all these little bits to follow up on. Are there any more questions? Or anything you wanted to finish up on, Jack?
Jack Niland: Oh yeah, I think it's been lots of good questions from you guys. PDFs are always a big subject for us, which is why we put this together, and hopefully we can come back to you with the answers to these questions as well, and we can all learn a little bit more about PDFs. But yeah, I think it's a really good idea if there's any way that you guys can share your knowledge together within the community there, best practices and all that sort of stuff would be ideal.
Austin Brailey: Okay, great, well as mentioned you'll be able to do the follow-up and people will receive an email after this webinar, so unless there was anything else, I think we're probably a little ahead of schedule there.
Jack Niland: Okay.
Austin Brailey: But yeah, we can share Jack's email as well, so if anybody does have any other questions and wants to go directly to Jack, yeah, he's kindly agreed to do that as well, so I think that might be it for the time being. Thank you everybody.
Jack Niland: Thanks everybody.
Austin Brailey: Thanks a lot. Bye-bye.